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 Post subject: English, or Vulgar Tongue.
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 2:35 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:15 am
Posts: 27
Hey yall, hope all is going well.
So here's my issue, or question if you will.
How many of yall have been sitting under a Preacher as he preached? And buddy, he's a preachin good.
But then he comes to that part of the message, where he has to go to the Greek.
Now brethren, it is with regret that I have to go to the Greek/or Hebrew, (unless he believes in the septuagint, then just Greek) because the English is so inferior to the mighty Greek!! So he goes to the Greek (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance) and gives you a definition, that you could have just as easily gotten from Websters 1828.
Now here's my question, is the English language really so bad, at communicating ideas that a Preacher must go to the "Original" languages to get clarification as to what God has said in his word?
Now I'll be fair that the English language of today has fallen from where it was in 1611. Yet does that mean we must have the Greek and Hebrew to have access to the word of God?
My soul, independent fundamental Baptists are playing the same game that the Methodists, etc did in the early twentieth century. Look at them now.

Going to the Greek to fix the English is the modern, Baptist way to correct God's word without getting their hands caught in the cookie jar!

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 Post subject: Re: English, or Vulgar Tongue.
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:35 pm 
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Joshuajlawn wrote:
Now here's my question, is the English language really so bad, at communicating ideas that a Preacher must go to the "Original" languages to get clarification as to what God has said in his word?

No sir! I know it's a rhetorical question, but I'm still gonna answer it. :mrgreen:
Joshuajlawn wrote:
Now I'll be fair that the English language of today has fallen from where it was in 1611. Yet does that mean we must have the Greek and Hebrew to have access to the word of God?

No sir!

Joshuajlawn wrote:
My soul, independent fundamental Baptists are playing the same game that the Methodists, etc did in the early twentieth century. Look at them now.

Going to the Greek to fix the English is the modern, Baptist way to correct God's word without getting their hands caught in the cookie jar!


Sounds more like the Southern Baptist Convention ( SBC ) vs. IFB.

What part of the country are you in? I'm sure it's getting more prevalent in IFB ministries -- but around here I think the independent Baptists in Florida have done a pretty good job of respecting the KJB's english, at least from what I have seen.

I don't mind if they use Greek or Hebrew as long as they aren't trying to correct the KJB with it -- or as you say "fix" the english. If I start hearing that I'm out the door! :?

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 Post subject: Re: English, or Vulgar Tongue.
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 9:40 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:15 am
Posts: 27
No, this is genuine independent Baptist. I've heard Melvine Aiken do it, Scot Dean, Oliver B. Green and many others.
I love in North Carolina, but lived in Greenville SC for a year.
Now they don't seem to be trying to actually correct the Book. But they will say that the English language is unable to convey to the fullest what God is trying to say, giving them an excuse to go to the Greek.
I think it might have something to do with the fact that a lot of folks don't want to be labeled a "Ruckmanite" or be accused of believing in double inspiration (which I know are scare words, or to quote Doc, tradesman terms).
These fellers are good brothers, and most wouldn't intentionally correct the Book.
I guess my contention is, when William Tyndall told that baalite priest that he would that the plow boy would know more Scripture than him, I don't believe Tyndall was referring to Greek or Hebrew.

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 Post subject: Re: English, or Vulgar Tongue.
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 10:22 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:56 pm
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"Joshuajlawn"
Quote:
How many of yall have been sitting under a Preacher as he preached? And buddy, he's a preachin good.
But then he comes to that part of the message, where he has to go to the Greek.
Now brethren, it is with regret that I have to go to the Greek/or Hebrew, (unless he believes in the septuagint, then just Greek) because the English is so inferior to the mighty Greek!! So he goes to the Greek (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance) and gives you a definition, that you could have just as easily gotten from Websters 1828.

I visited the society of friends church,the last 2 sundays,in which i left 7 years ago. The pastor had mentioned,greek,the torah,and the tanakh,his authority is the NLT,or at least part of the time,that is also there pew bible.
Funny thing after the sermon,he had said to watch out for different bible versions,and if people needed help,to ask him what to use. Interesting. Blind as a bat backing in backwards. :D
A english dictionary is not hard to use. Why would God hide something from us,in a dead language and then judge us for it at the great white throne judgement?


Quote:
Now here's my question, is the English language really so bad, at communicating ideas that a Preacher must go to the "Original" languages to get clarification as to what God has said in his word?
Now I'll be fair that the English language of today has fallen from where it was in 1611. Yet does that mean we must have the Greek and Hebrew to have access to the word of God?


The english language has deteriorated,Gods word hasn't,its timeless. We need to bring our language up to Gods standards,not mans standards in the laodicean era
There is no use for greek or hebrew today. By using greek or hebrew we are going backwards and causing more confusion than ought be.
Its not the english language that cannot communicate the ideas,its the preachers who can't communicate the ideas.

Quote:
My soul, independent fundamental Baptists are playing the same game that the Methodists, etc did in the early twentieth century. Look at them now.

Going to the Greek to fix the English is the modern, Baptist way to correct God's word without getting their hands caught in the cookie jar!


When it comes to being a independent fundamental baptist,which baptists are the real non denominational churches,and are baptistic in doctrine,salvation by grace,eternal security,the KJ Bible being the FINAL authority in all matters of faith and practice,separation of church and state,baptism by immersion........If there doctrine doesn't line up with this,than why are they calling themselves Baptist?

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But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


Last edited by Biblebeliever on Mon May 18, 2015 7:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: English, or Vulgar Tongue.
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 12:31 am 
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Posts: 2290
Joshuajlawn wrote:
But they will say that the English language is unable to convey to the fullest what God is trying to say, giving them an excuse to go to the Greek.
I particularly find this phrase disturbing, unfortunately I think you've accurately stated what they think:
Quote:
what God is trying to say,
I'm afraid there really are people who think that God is unable to make His word clearly known to us, so they have to help Him out. That seems to make them smarter than both us and ..

Imagine, God says, "My word is very pure".
The scholar/translator/preacher says, "God isn't able to convey His thoughts clearly to you, so let me tell you what He really means."

Isn't this what's really happening? And why do people seem to want to trust the word of men over the word of God?


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 Post subject: Re: English, or Vulgar Tongue.
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 7:47 am 
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Location: Ia
Joshuajlawn wrote:
Now they don't seem to be trying to actually correct the Book.

These fellers are good brothers, and most wouldn't intentionally correct the Book.


They may be good brothers,but they are intentionally correcting Gods word with the greek,and most likely greek that the King James translators had rejected to begin with.
Unfortunately,there are pseudo King James Bible preachers in some IFB churches,but are in fact users only.
If these preachers can't convey what Gods says in english,then they don't have a chance of conveying it in greek.

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1 Peter 1:25
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


Last edited by Biblebeliever on Mon May 18, 2015 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: English, or Vulgar Tongue.
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 7:51 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:56 pm
Posts: 268
Location: Ia
Jeff wrote:
Joshuajlawn wrote:
But they will say that the English language is unable to convey to the fullest what God is trying to say, giving them an excuse to go to the Greek.
I particularly find this phrase disturbing, unfortunately I think you've accurately stated what they think:
Quote:
what God is trying to say,
I'm afraid there really are people who think that God is unable to make His word clearly known to us, so they have to help Him out. That seems to make them smarter than both us and ..

Imagine, God says, "My word is very pure".
The scholar/translator/preacher says, "God isn't able to convey His thoughts clearly to you, so let me tell you what He really means."

Isn't this what's really happening? And why do people seem to want to trust the word of men over the word of God?

That's what is happening.
They try to help God out and find things in there that God hasn't found. :lol:

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1 Peter 1:25
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


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 Post subject: Re: English, or Vulgar Tongue.
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 11:27 am 

Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:15 am
Posts: 27
Amen to all the above.
It ultimately comes down to, can God inspire a translation.
The scholars (Scholars know the alexandrian cult, as well as TR scholars) all say no way, they say that only the original autographs were inspired.
Then they say that if you believe that the King James Bible is inspired, then you believe in double inspiration, and are a Ruckmanite. Sadly many a Christian is more afraid of being labeled a Ruckmanite than they are of correcting God's Book.

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 Post subject: Re: English, or Vulgar Tongue.
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 3:13 pm 
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Joshuajlawn wrote:
Amen to all the above.
It ultimately comes down to, can God inspire a translation.
The scholars (Scholars know the alexandrian cult, as well as TR scholars) all say no way, they say that only the original autographs were inspired.
Then they say that if you believe that the King James Bible is inspired, then you believe in double inspiration, and are a Ruckmanite. Sadly many a Christian is more afraid of being labeled a Ruckmanite than they are of correcting God's Book.
I'm already labeled a homophobe, an Islamaphobe, and I don't know what all. At least Ruckmanite has a more positive sound to it. Maybe we should use the liberal tactic against them and call them Ruckmanphobes. :)

I never fully understood the meaning of double-inspiration. Isn't God still able to completely guide people today? Or did He semi-retire 2,000 years ago? I believe that God can still guide, inspire, people who are fully dedicated to Him. For that matter, I believe He is fully able to guide events in the lives of men who are nonbelievers, just as he used nations to judge Israel, and is still using events today, and men like Judas whose actions were fully predetermined.

I believe God fully superintended over the translation of the KJV. I guess that you could say that means inspiration was involved. For that matter, I would hope that any Bible believing preacher who gives a sermon is inspired, if not I believe that would mean that he's just preaching completely under his own understanding. So if a pastor gives a Biblical sermon under the inspiration of God, does that mean that it was doubly-inspired? And if he received God's guidance in preparing and delivering the sermon, wouldn't that be called inspiration? Or are all sermons today full of mistakes because God has ceased to inspire?

Men today seem to believe that God is devolving as they're evolving. They seem to think that God's perfection is no longer able to overcome the corruption of men. Either that or they think they no longer need God as they themselves are evolving. "Scholars" today seem to believe that they have evolved greatly since the time the Neanderthals translated the KJV, even as God's arm has been shortened over the past two millennium.

On the contrary, I don't know a "scholar" today who can hold a candle to any one of the KJV translators, much less all to them together.


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 Post subject: Re: English, or Vulgar Tongue.
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 3:59 pm 
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Jeff wrote:
So if a pastor gives a Biblical sermon under the inspiration of God, does that mean that it was doubly-inspired?
Actually, no. If a pastor gets his inspiration from a passage in the doubly-inspired KJV, that would be triple-inspiration. Then if someone hearing that sermon is inspired to take some action based on that sermon, that would be quadruple-inspiration.

But I guess, according to the Ruckmanphobe, God is unable to go beyond the first power.


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