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 Post subject: Re: A strictly out of curiosity question
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:07 am 
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VernE wrote:
In response to the point made earlier that meanings of certain words in the Spanish Bibles were changed from the 1860s, I would agree - why change the meaning, unless the language itself has changed, in which case it is to avoid misunderstandings? As to the learning of English in order to get a better grasp of the meaning, I would respectfully pose the question - How easy is it to get a proper grasp of the meaning, even by English speakers, of 400 year old English? It is a pity that translators, though well meaning in this regard, did not make a success of the NKJV. I would love to see this issue resolved so that there is one AV based correctly on the original KJV with accurate correctly understandable wording in good standard smoothly flowing contemporary English which also preserves all the original word pictures etc.
So we can't even get a good grasp of 400 year old English, yet we can trust the scholars to correctly translate 2,000 + year old languages for us?

Bro. Parrish brought up how much of the world has and is learning competent English, and yet us native English speakers can't even understand or learn English as used in the Bible, by Shakespeare, and maybe not even important documents from a couple of hundred years ago at the founding of our nation?

Part of the problem today is that we have "Babel Effect" English (my terminology). Those in the South have their manners of speech, those in the North use some different terms, inner-city lingo is something different altogether. So which do we aim our new translation at?

You want "one AV based correctly on the original KJV with accurate correctly understandable wording in good standard smoothly flowing contemporary English which also preserves all the original word pictures etc." Another part of the problem is that modern English is no longer as precise and as smooth and beautiful as it once was. So even if we dumb down the Bible as our language decays, how long do you think it will be before we need to do it again? People already seem to be trying to get us to believe we need a new one every couple of years, if not every month. The fact is that as long as the Bible is no longer the standard of our education our language and culture will continue to decay. The answer is not to make the Bible decay also. Even so, as far as we've gotten from a biblical education, and as much as our society and language have decayed because of it, the meaning of the Bible is still easily accessible to those who believe it and sincerely seek it's meaning. Even if it does take a little more study, the blessings will be that much greater than reading a dumbed-down-easy-to-understand bible.

As I understand it, the English used in the KJV wasn't even necessarily the vernacular of the day, but it was used because the Bible is a special book that deserves the highest state of the language available. There is no document more important than the Bible. Maybe New Age brain surgeons and rocket scientists will demand that their text books be written in English that is easier for them to understand without using all those difficult and confusing medical and scientific terms. Just as more rockets would explode and patients die because of the laziness of students, churches are crashing and dying because christians are demanding Bibles written specifically so that they can read it without having to think. They really don't want a Book they have to study and think very hard about. The Bible isn't necessarily meant to be entirely easy to understand. There is a reason Jesus spoke in parables, for example. But people want a Book that they have authority over, not that has authority over them.


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 Post subject: What about Foreign Language Bibles?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:00 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:54 pm
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Location: Colorado
If the King James Bible in English is the perfect words of God, then What About Other Languages?

I am frequently asked this question by other Christians who do not believe the King James Bible or any bible is now the inerrant words of God.
I finally decided to put a concise answer together to respond to this common question. Here it is.
Hi brother and sister......, this is a good question but not at all hard to answer if you think about it. God never promised to give every nation or every individual a perfect Bible. It certainly never turned out this way in history, did it?
In fact, for the first 3000 to 4000 years of recorded history, there was only one nation on earth that had the true words of God. "He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation, and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD." Psalm 147:19-20.
Now that the gospel is going out to the nations, the only promise from God we have is that "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14
The gospel of salvation through the substitutionary death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is found in any bible in any language it has been translated into, no matter how poorly or partially done it may be. God can and does use other bible versions, partial translations, or just simple gospel tracts to bring His people to faith in Christ. I do not deny but strongly affirm this to be true.
But that does not make these other partial translations, bible tracts or versions the perfect words of God. There has to be at least one perfect Bible in this world that serves as the Final Authority and Standard by which all others are measured.
It certainly does not exist in the Hebrew or the Greek. There is no "the Hebrew" and much less is there "the" Greek. Besides, once a complete Bible is put together, there has to be a translation of some kind in order to put both the Old and New Testaments into one language. Since God has promised to preserve His WORDS (not just the general, ballpark approximation) in the book of the LORD, this book must exist somewhere.
All the evidence points to the King James Bible as being that book for over 400 years now. It was the KJB that was used by English and American missionaries to carry to gospel to the nations in the greatest missionary movement in history. It was the KJB that was carried out into space and read from.
I believe in the sovereignty of God in history. "For the kingdom is the LORD'S; and He is the governor among the nations." Psalm 22:28. God has set His mark upon many things in this world that reveal His Divine hand at work in history. Why do we use the 7 day week instead of the 10 day week? Why are dates either B.C. (Before Christ) or A.D. (Anno Domini - year of our Lord)? (although the secular world is now trying in vain to change this too to BCE and CE.) England just "happens to be" the one nation from which we measure the true Time (Greenwich time, zero hour) and from which we measure true Position, zero longitude. In 1611 the English language was spoken by a mere 3% of the world's population, but today English has become the closest thing to a universal language in history. God knew He would use England, its language and the King James Bible to accomplish all these things long before they happened.
Today it is only the King James Bible believer who boldly maintains that there really is an inerrant, complete and 100% true Holy Bible on this earth that a person can actually hold it in his hands and read and believe every word. All modern version proponents deny that any tangible, “hold it in your hands and read Bible” IS now the inerrant words of God.
God only holds us accountable for the light He has been pleased to give us. To whom much is given, from him shall much be required - "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48.
God has given to the English speaking people His perfect words in the King James Bible. We will be held far more accountable for what we have done with this Book than any other people.
In his excellent book, Which Translation Should You Trust?, Timothy S. Morton writes: -
“Nowhere in the scriptures does God make any statement or implication that there must be a perfect Bible in every language. He has promised to preserve His word for every generation as we have seen, but He has not promised to preserve it in every existing language. Let's look at the language of the original autographs for a moment. Nearly all of the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, however, no nation spoke Hebrew except the Israelites. God was not obligated to give His word in Egyptian, Syrian, Chaldian, or any other language. His word was available to the people in these nations also, but they had to go to the Jews to get it. To the Jews were committed the oracles of God, and there were provisions in the law to allow strangers (foreigners) to convert to Judaism. Look at Ruth the Moabite for example. She was David's great-grandmother, an ancestor of Jesus Christ.
The same can be said about the New Testament language, Greek. Though it was a more widespread language than Hebrew, there were still millions of people who could not understand it when the New Testament was written. Again, God was not then, or now, obligated to give His word in every existing language, and those who argue He must are ignorant of history and of the scriptures.
God, who will not be intimidated by modern "scholarship," decided to combine His word into one universal language to make it more accessible to all men. He knew how English would circle the globe under the British empire and American influence. He knew how in the twentieth century English would be the second language for millions. He knew how it would become the world language of diplomacy, finance, and airlines, as well as of absolute time, temperature, and position. By his grace, God has made His word more available, readable and understandable by putting it in English; much more than it ever was in the "original languages." (End of quote by Tim Morton)
To the degree that foreign language bible versions follow the same underlying Hebrew and Greek texts, and to the degree that their individual translations match those found in the King James Bible, to that degree they can be considered to be the true words of God. To the degree that they depart from both the texts and meanings found in the KJB, to that degree they are corrupt and inferior.
Some may bring up the argument - "Well, what about the verses that say "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4 and Deuteronomy 8:3) So how can foreign language Christians do this if they don't have a perfect Bible?"
This is a good question, but again, I don't think it is that hard to answer. When both Deuteronomy 8:3 was written, as well as when Jesus repeated it in Matthew 4:4, the whole Bible had not yet even been finished yet. In fact, none of the New Testament has been recorded.
We can only live by every word of God that He has been pleased to give us for the time and place we live in. Many languages today still do not have a complete Bible or even a complete New Testament. And some of the Scriptures they do have omit many whole verses, phrases and words. But what they DO have that IS the true words of God is what He has been pleased to give them to live by.
Among foreign language translations that I would recommend are the Spanish Reina Valera of 1909, or the more modern Reina Valera Gomez translation of 2004, the Italian Diodati of 1649 or the New Diodati of 1991, the German Schlachter Bible 2000 and the French Ostervald of 1996. All these Bibles are based on the Hebrew Masorretic texts in the O.T. and the Traditional Greek texts in the New Testament.
I do not believe that every foreigner in non-English speaking countries needs to learn the English language and read the King James Bible. Salvation through faith in the substitutionary death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is not only found the King James Bible.
If there are several different versions in their own native language (Spanish, German, Russian, Chinese, or whatever), then I would recommend they use the one that most closely follows the same Hebrew and Greek texts that underlie the King James Bible. If they only have a translation based on the ever changing, modern Critical Texts, then they should thank God for what they do have and use it.
Regarding the question of “Well, what about before 1611?” please see my article here:
As for: “Can a Translation be inspired?” please see:
This is how I see it and what I believe. Not a difficult question at all.

_________________
"Is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" - Zechariah 3:2

http://brandplucked.webs.com/articles.htm


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 Post subject: Re: A strictly out of curiosity question
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:48 pm 
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Posts: 3303
VernE wrote:
How easy is it to get a proper grasp of the meaning, even by English speakers, of 400 year old English?

Actually it's pretty easy!
Riplinger provides over 20 pages in her book of evidence proving the KJB is far easier to understand than the modern junk. Over 350 examples where the King James Bible is the clear winner.

In comparing the first chapter of the first and last books of the Old and New Testaments, the Flesch-Kincaid research company’s Grade Level Indicator shows "The KJV ranks easier in 23 out of 26 comparisons" (Riplinger, New Age Bible Versions, 1994, p. 195) Check it out --->

http://www.av1611.org/kjv/kjv_easy.html

VernE wrote:
I would love to see this issue resolved so that there is one AV based correctly on the original KJV with accurate correctly understandable wording in good standard smoothly flowing contemporary English which also preserves all the original word pictures etc.


In my opinion, nothing needs to be resolved! I think the KJV is full of accurate correctly understandable wording, yes there are some ancient words but if we have any trouble just grab a dictionary. To be honest I have to define words all the time even when reading the news, so it's not unusual. :oops:

Ya know VernE, I'm a pretty dumb person and always looking to improve my vocabulary, so I subscribe to "Word of the Day," via email -- and I can tell you that in the last month they have sent me at least three English words which I did not understand ( 1:IRENIC, 2: FUGACIOUS, and 3: NOSOPHOBIA ) none of those words are considered "archaic" but I still didn't have a clue what they mean! Do you know what those words mean? I see words like this all the time, so looking up a word in the KJV is not unusual for me, it's standard operating procedure ( SOP ). :mrgreen:

So I have come to the conclusion there is nothing wrong with my Bible, it's my brain that is weak! If there is a pity here, to me it's that today's Christians have misconceptions about the KJB -- there's nothing wrong with our Bible it's perfect!

As for needing "smoothly flowing contemporary English" well buddy if I were you I wouldn't fall for that nonsense, that sounds like a sales pitch from Zondervan. The reason they want you to think your Bible isn't "contemporary" enough, is because they sell new Bibles! :lol:

I think the KJV is the easiest to both speak and memorize myself, it "flows" right off the tongue which kinda makes sense because it was meant to be shared!

Look at it this way. If the KJV was truly difficult to understand, it wouldn't still be the most popular and fastest growing Bible on the entire market! --->

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2078

_________________
"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors." -- George Washington (Ref: A Collection, W.B. Allen, ed. 543)


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