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 Post subject: Capitalization in the KJV
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:58 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:33 pm
Posts: 11
Hello, All, my first post here but I am seeking to learn more about the "mechanics" of the KJV.

I noticed recently that the term "holy spirit" is capitalized several different ways in the Authorized Version and was wondering if there were any significance to that or whether it is simply a case of capitalization rules not being standardized yet when the translation came out. A quick glance at the verses using the phrase seem to suggest a difference in meaning intended by the translators to me but I wonder whether I am on the right track.

The verses in question, including the KJV Apocrypha for linguistic purposes:

As a title for the Third Person of the Trinity, both words capitalized-
"thy Holy Spirit" (Wisdom 9:17)
"the Holy Spirit" (Lk. 11:13)

Referring to the Third Person but stressing the quality of holiness specifically, Spirit is capitalized but not holy-
"his holy Spirit" (Is. 63:10)
"his holy Spirit" (Is. 63:11)
"that holy Spirit" (Eph. 1:13)
"the holy Spirit" (Eph. 4:30)
"his holy Spirit" (1 Tim. 4:8)

A sanctified human spirit, neither capitalized-
"remove not thy holy Spirit from me" (Ps. 51:11- but I have seen commentators refer this to the Holy Spirit as well)
"the holy spirit of a young youth" (Daniel 13:45)

Perhaps an impersonal spirit like "the American spirit", neither capitalized-
"the holy spirit of discipline" (Wisdom 9:17)

The different renderings don't seem random to me but I wanted to see what others who appreciate the exactness of the KJV translators thought?


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalization in the KJV
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:28 pm 
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Howdy. Do you believe the KJV is the inerrant word of God?

I never got too wrapped up in the capitalization thing. I have looked at it some, maybe I should study it more. But the more I looked at it the more I became convinced at the end of the day it didn't really hold a big amount of interest for me. I'm not saying it isn't interesting for others though.

Some people say they do not embrace the KJV because it doesn't capitalize personal pronouns for God. Then those same people will go and use a modern version which has its own caps issues and also deletes thousands of words. :roll:

Some people get all worked up over italics and/or spelling issues in the KJV.
There are "PCE people" who think only they have the "pure" KJV, yada yada, on and on it goes.

I think the KJV is above the translators, and I don't think the KJV came about by the will of man or their exactness. They were simply tools for the Holy Spirit.

From what I have seen, just about the time you think you're an expert, and you have the caps and stuff in the KJV all figured out, God will throw you a "curve ball" and shut you up. At the end of the day, I guess I believe God did some strange things in the KJV just to confound people who think they are smarter than the Lord. :mrgreen:

Anyway, I wish you the best in your quest -- happy holidays and welcome to the forum!

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 Post subject: Re: Capitalization in the KJV
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:33 pm
Posts: 11
Baptist1611 wrote:
Howdy. Do you believe the KJV is the inerrant word of God?

I never got too wrapped up in the capitalization thing. I have looked at it some, maybe I should study it more. But the more I looked at it the more I became convinced at the end of the day it didn't really hold a big amount of interest for me. I'm not saying it isn't interesting for others though.

Some people say they do not embrace the KJV because it doesn't capitalize personal pronouns for God. Then those same people will go and use a modern version which has its own caps issues and also deletes thousands of words. :roll:

Some people get all worked up over italics and/or spelling issues in the KJV.
There are "PCE people" who think only they have the "pure" KJV, yada yada, on and on it goes.

I think the KJV is above the translators, and I don't think the KJV came about by the will of man or their exactness. They were simply tools for the Holy Spirit.

From what I have seen, just about the time you think you're an expert, and you have the caps and stuff in the KJV all figured out, God will throw you a "curve ball" and shut you up. At the end of the day, I guess I believe God did some strange things in the KJV just to confound people who think they are smarter than the Lord. :mrgreen:

Anyway, I wish you the best in your quest -- happy holidays and welcome to the forum!



Thanks for the welcome!

I am not KJO but I am definitely Majority Text Only.

I believe the KJV is the finest, most accurate, and most culturally transformative English translation. Finest because it is the most beautiful expression of our language at its highest point of developement, most accurate because it comes from the most accurate ancient textual tradition and transformative of our culture because of its pervasive influence.

I don't think this will ever be duplicated by another group of translators- our language has been dumbed down and the multiplicity of versions in a secularized society will not allow any future single version to have the impact the KJV has had.

As someone who reads the Greek fairly well I also appreciate the way it brings out nuances with the syntax, pronouns and inflected verb endings that we no longer have in English as well as its preserved Hebraisms in both Testaments.

I think my question on the usage of capitalization comes from the fact that I have been so blessed by the clarity of passages when I mind the meaning of the "thee's and ye's" that I would like to mine the text more deeply on case I am missing other gems that would have been obvious to a 17th century reader but are not as noticeable to those of us born after the invention of television.

I know I have left out the spiritual aspect of approaching Scripture with prayer and obedience but since my question is technical so is my explanation. Rest assured, I do these without wanting to leave the other undone. :-)

Thanks for responding!


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalization in the KJV
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:13 pm 
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"Nuances, syntax, pronouns and inflected verb endings."
Okay. What I'm asking you is, do you believe there is a Bible on earth today that is the inerrant word of God? :geek:

_________________
"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors." -- George Washington (Ref: A Collection, W.B. Allen, ed. 543)


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalization in the KJV
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:19 pm 
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Belisarius77 wrote:
I think my question on the usage of capitalization comes from the fact that I have been so blessed by the clarity of passages ...

I've struggled over the importance of caps; then, I came across two verses:

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Faith comes hearing the word, not by spellcheck.

Having said that; I am concerned about KJB who change the spelling which changes the meaning.
Ex: throughly, and thoroughly.

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 Post subject: Re: Capitalization in the KJV
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:25 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:33 pm
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I do believe the Greek is inerrant, and I believe the KJV is the most accurate translation in English of those texts.

That is why the nuances, syntax, pronouns and inflected verb endings, etc. are important to me as they were to the translators of 1611.

Not looking for an argument, brother, just looking to see if anyone can help me to appreciate the KJV as the translators rendered it more deeply.


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalization in the KJV
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:29 pm 
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Belisarius77 wrote:
Not looking for an argument, brother, just looking to see if anyone can help me to appreciate the KJV as the translators rendered it more deeply.

Why would you appreciate the KJV,
you don't even think it's the inerrant word of God.
You don't have to go too "deep" to see that. :roll:

Quote:
I do believe the Greek is inerrant

So what you're saying is, in order for an English speaking person to have the inerrant word of God, they would have to learn GREEK, is that right?

_________________
"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors." -- George Washington (Ref: A Collection, W.B. Allen, ed. 543)


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalization in the KJV
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:42 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:33 pm
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My earlier posts list some of the reasons I appreciate the KJV.

Out of curiosity, do you believe an Italian would have to learn English to have the inerrant word of God?


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalization in the KJV
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:54 pm 
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Belisarius77 wrote:
My earlier posts list some of the reasons I appreciate the KJV.

You haven't answered my question.
So what you're saying is, if we don't know/read/speak/understand GREEK, we can't truly have the inerrant word of God, is that correct? What would we have to do with the KJV in order for it to get to the level of the GREEK which is your final authority? I mean specifically, you know, "technically?" :geek:

_________________
"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors." -- George Washington (Ref: A Collection, W.B. Allen, ed. 543)


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalization in the KJV
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:04 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:33 pm
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Nor have you answered my question- do believers who do not read English or Greek have the inerrant word of God?

In any case, I came here for information about understanding the KJV better from a group of people who should encourage that- not for argumentation.

Language studies may not be your thing brother (and that's fine- we all have different interests) but if every spiritual man such as yourself thought the same way we wouldn't even have a KJV translated accurately from the Hebrew and Greek would we?

Now, was I errant to come here, or have I merely walked into the lion's den? The avatar on your profile indicates that I may have :-)


Last edited by Belisarius77 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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