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 Post subject: Re: Can Modern Versions lead to salvation?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:04 am 
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Jeff wrote:
Anyway, that seems to be basically what his position is, but then he brings up some other concerning statements:
Donskey wrote:
Does God save people in some unique way outside of the gospel according to the scriptures? I dunno, maybe he does maybe he doesn’t. Do I restrict God? Absolutely not. If he chooses to save someone outside the method he gave us in the scripture, then that’s up to him....

I hope he's questioning whether faith can come by reading, rather than just audibly hearing as he seems to be interpreting Romans 10:17, or something like that and not whether God has other methods of salvation than through Jesus Christ, or anything else that contradicts the scripture. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this, but it still sounds like he saying that he has to assume scripture is right, even if possibly it isn't.(?)

As to the above, he may be referring to dreams; I've read of a Muslim who had a dream where he was visited by Jesus who pointed him to a christian. No way whatsoever as to test validity.
Donskey also believes Satan authors modern bibles, and that may be the root of the issue; since I think Satan changes or corrupts the Bible, not that he authors bibles from scratch.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Modern Versions lead to salvation?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:45 am 
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PeanutGallery wrote:
As to the above, he may be referring to dreams; I've read of a Muslim who had a dream where he was visited by Jesus who pointed him to a christian. No way whatsoever as to test validity.

Good point, Peanut. He did say:
Donskey wrote:
If I meet someone and they say I got saved because God revealed himself in a
dream
or a vision or they read some piece of paper that had a verse from some Bible under the seat of a train, I would say that’s great, that’s wonderful but now let me share with you what the scriptures say, the very word of God about salvation and how to get saved. They can get angry and curse me, or they can listen and accept what the scriptures say. If they were already saved then no harm has been done, but if they were not then praise be to God another soul out of the pits of hell.

Maybe he doesn't totally reject that other things *might* lead to salvation, just that modern versions can't. Assuming the case of the Muslim is true, I think we would all agree that the dream itself didn't save him, but led him to a place where he could come to the knowledge of scripture concerning salvation. But I wouldn't call that "save[ing] people in some unique way outside of the gospel according to the scriptures."

BTW, I think we'll also all agree that his response to make sure someone who professes to be saved is actually saved in agreement with the scriptures is the correct response.
PeanutGallery wrote:
Donskey also believes Satan authors modern bibles, and that may be the root of the issue; since I think Satan changes or corrupts the Bible, not that he authors bibles from scratch.

Yep, and that's one thing I've tried to corner him on; if they, or a tract, or a person says the same thing a Bible says, especially in regards to salvation, is it true since the Bible is true (are things that are the same different? :)). He wouldn't answer directly, but his answer appeared to have been "no", they are authored by satan, and are another Christ, so even the parts that agree with the truth are lies. Now that Baptist has rephrased the question somewhat for him so that he can understand it, it appears he may be reconsidering but is still inclined to say no.

He may also be reconsidering the point you and I, at least, have brought up since Baptist gave a different illustration.
Donskey wrote:
Baptist1611 wrote:
Now if a man wandering in the wilderness is in dire need of water and he comes upon some polluted water that is not 100% pure, he can still get some water and LIVE, even if there are some bugs and junk in it -- see my point? He might not do very well long term drinking from that source, but at least he found LIFE. He will probably become a weakened, sickly dude if he keeps using that source of water and never as strong as he could be with 100% pure water, but at least he found LIFE, and from there he can move to a better source. Do you see my point Donskey?


A very good analogy. I'm going to have to think about this analogy a little. I can't really fault it, it does make a lot of sense.



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 Post subject: Re: Can Modern Versions lead to salvation?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:24 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:06 am
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Again sorry for the delay. I will answer, just waiting for the weekend, but unfortunately will be flying out tomorrow for a 5 day conference. Will reply as soon as I can

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 Post subject: Re: Can Modern Versions lead to salvation?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:38 am 

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"will be flying out tomorrow for a 5 day conference"

lucky you.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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 Post subject: Re: Can Modern Versions lead to salvation?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:37 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:06 am
Posts: 24
Steve Schwenke wrote:
Donskey, if you would please clarify your position regarding other peoples around the world who do not speak or read English. How can they be saved without the use of a KJV?


Hey Pastor

My position on this is I don't really know. Again, all I can do is trust and believe what the scriptures say, that he wants all men to be saved

1 Tim 2
[4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

My wife is Russian. Her parents and grand parents live in Russia and don't speak a word of English. After she got saved she obviously wanted her family to be saved. She asked me what should we do?

I told her to compare the KJV with their Russian Bible. Check some key scriptures, Act 8:37, 1 John 5:7 etc and see if they are there. And so she did and they were in the Russian Bible her parents had.

She quoted the Russian Bible verses pertaining to the gospel and salvation, and subsequently both her parents and her grandparents accepted what she preached, and got saved.

Now are they saved? I don't know. I have to believe they are, am I 100% sure? No I'm not, what I'm 100% sure about is when someone hears the scriptures (the word of God which is the KJV today) and obtains faith for salvation and gets saved. That is what I'm 100% sure about, because that's what I read in the scriptures.

Outside of the scriptures like my wife's family, all I can do is present to them what is available and leave it in God's hands. I believe God, who says he is no respecter of persons and that he wants all to come to the knowledge of salvation. Does he have some special dispensation for such people without the scriptures(the KJV), I hope so. By faith I have to believe he does.

Now to those who have the scriptures available, that is the English speaking world, then I will present them the scriptures, the word of God, nothing more, nothing less. Modern versions are not the word of God and therefore not scripture. It's not that difficult. I simply believe it. If that makes me an extremist, then fine I'm an extremist for believing exactly what God says. I don't change it, don't alter it, interpret it to my liking, I just simply believe it and tell others what it says.

Again, as I stated in another post, do I limit God who might use a modern version or the NWT to get someone to the point of salvation? absolutely not, but that's not for me to determine, what I will do, is preach what I know and what it say's in scripture, that to obtain faith you need to hear the word of God, and the only form of the word of God we have today is the scriptures, and scripture is inspired. The KJV is scripture, it's inspired, all the other versions are not, therefore not scripture.

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[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.



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 Post subject: Re: Can Modern Versions lead to salvation?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:26 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:06 am
Posts: 24
Jeff wrote:
I asked:
Quote:
Does that mean that the word of God can't exist outside the KJV? Every thought (word) God has ever had is recorded in the KJV?

Obviously all of God's knowledge is not contained in the KJV.

I believe I've also asked you if a modern version, person, tract, etc. says the same thing as the KJV if that is also truth. That was my point in the above question, not if there are other ways to get saved, I think you understood that.


Sure it can be true, many things can be true, but is it the "Truth"? 2 + 2 = 4. Now that is true, but it's not the "Truth", the "Truth" is Jesus Christ, who is the word of God, living spoken and written. Modern versions, tracts, NWT speak of the truth and are very similar to the KJV, they need to be similar, that's what counterfeits are, they look very much like what they are pretending to be, but they are not, they are counterfiets, and they are not "Truth" because they are not the word of God. The KJV is the "Truth" it is the written word God, it is Jesus Christ in written form, the word of God.

Now before you begin to accuse me of idolatry, the KJV is nothing more than a book with words and ink, it only becomes alive when it is spoken, when it is preached, when it is meditated, when it's read. The KJV on a shelf with all the other books is just the same as all the other books. It's not magical or glows or should be bowed down to and worshiped.

Jeff wrote:
Another serious question you seem to be avoiding is whether or not pygmys and the deaf can be saved without learning English or hearing. BTW,they are not hypothetical, or anecdotal, or anything else; they do exist.
You seem to be limiting God to a great extent.


And you accuse me of not representing you correctly? I answered that question and I readdressed it in my last post. I don't limit God, I believe and preach what God has revealed to me. Outside of that, I'm speculating and hoping and have to accept some things by faith.

Jeff wrote:
Donskey wrote:
If I thought modern versions could lead to faith in God and his gospel, I wouldn’t criticize them, I would let them be and uplift them.

Okay, whatever :roll: . I've also answered this type of statement before. There are many reasons we don't support corrupt modern versions, sorry you don't understand that.

Finally we agree on something, you're right I don't understand your position, doesn't make sense to me at all. If modern versions can be preached and heard and people get saved, I for one would not degrade them, criticize them or say anything bad about them. Let them be, they're getting people saved, isn't that the most important and I mean the most important of anything the Bible teaches?
But I don't believe they can, therefore I will be consistent and degrade them, I will give them no credence whatsoever none, Nada, naught, zero.

Jeff wrote:
Quote:
[2Cor 11:3] But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

So if we're preaching another gospel, I wonder whose gospel is simpler? Our gospel that you need to believe on the Lord Jesus, or your gospel that you need to learn English...I don't know what all.


You conveniently omit a very crucial point. The gospel is "according to the SCRIPTURES"

The gospel I preach is very simple. The gospel I preach is according to the scriptures because all I use is the KJV. Doesn't get much simpler than that. It will get more complicated if you believe other resources such as modern versions can also contain the gospel according to the scriptures, because then you would have more than one scriptures. Oh modern versions do have stories and pertain to declare what God says, but they are counterfeits to the word of God. They are not the gospel according to the scriptures. ALL scripture is inspired. Either modern versions are scripture therefore inspired, or they are not therefore not scripture.

Modern versions are not scripture therefore whatever they say, the gospel that is presented in those versions is not the gospel according to the scriptures. It's the gospel according to modern versions.


Jeff wrote:
Quote:
[Gal 1:8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Judadizers were mixing the law with grace. No one here is trying to add to salvation by adding the law or Mary or anything else, no one here is teaching another gospel.

I don't see much use in dealing further with you unless you decide to answer questions honestly and address facts rather than pretending the questions are beneath you.

G'day.


To reiterate, modern versions are not scripture and therefore do not contain the gospel according to the scriptures. Whatever gospels they contain are another gospel. You can either accept that or not. That's up to you.

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[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.



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 Post subject: Re: Can Modern Versions lead to salvation?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:14 am 
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Donskey wrote:
Check some key scriptures, Act 8:37, 1 John 5:7 etc and see if they are there. And so she did and they were in the Russian Bible her parents had.



Donskey wrote:
The KJV is scripture, it's inspired, all the other versions are not, therefore not scripture.

This guy sure talks out of both sides of his mouth. Scripture is scripture but yet it's not scripture.

He admits that the Russian people may be saved, at the same time he really doesn't allow that there is any way they can be saved according to the scriptures.


Donskey wrote:
Finally we agree on something, you're right I don't understand your position, doesn't make sense to me at all. If modern versions can be preached and heard and people get saved, I for one would not degrade them, criticize them or say anything bad about them.

I'll be very blunt, this is the height of stupidity. Taking the examples that have been given, he is saying that if polluted water can keep someone alive then why criticize it, even if pure water is available.

I could go on, but as I indicated before, this guy isn't worth dealing with as long as he can't deal honestly or intelligently.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Modern Versions lead to salvation?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:35 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:06 am
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Jeff wrote:
I'll be very blunt, this is the height of stupidity.

I could go on, but as I indicated before, this guy isn't worth dealing with as long as he can't deal honestly or intelligently.


Yep, you're typical of a modern version sympathizer, all you can do is get personal. If it makes you feel better then knock yourself out.

Don't blame me, I didn't write the scriptures, God wrote them, it's his words not mine. I just believe em. Why don't you go outside, look up to the sky and tell God you don't like what his word says. I dare ya

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[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.



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 Post subject: Re: Can Modern Versions lead to salvation?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:47 am 
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Donskey wrote:

Yep, you're typical of a modern version sympathizer, all you can do is get personal. If it makes you feel better then knock yourself out.


I didn't just get personal, but I gave an example to back up my charge, which you conveniently ignored, but you have a habit of that.


Donskey wrote:

Don't blame me, I didn't write the scriptures, God wrote them, it's his words not mine. I just believe em. Why don't you go outside, look up to the sky and tell God you don't like what his word says. I dare ya

Name one place where I have denied the scriptures, or "sympathized" with modern versions, otherwise keep your false charges to yourself, false accusations are of the devil.

Ironically, you're the only one I can recall saying that you really don't like what the scriptures (or at least your idea of scripture) have to say.

Donskey wrote:
Agree very much with what you say. I struggle with my view, I really do, I don't want to believe it, I would very much rather believe that all Bibles are seed and the word of God, but the more I read my KJV the more I see that it cannot be the case.



Apparently it's you that should be looking up to the sky and telling God you don't like what His word says (or what you interpret it to say), you've already told us.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Modern Versions lead to salvation?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:05 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:06 am
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Jeff wrote:
Name one place where I have denied the scriptures, or "sympathized" with modern versions, otherwise keep your false charges to yourself, false accusations are of the devil.


Hmm what planet am I on? You're the one defending modern versions not me.

I'm saying they are counterfeits and false etc, you're the one saying they have truth, that they somehow have God's word and gospel in there somewhere. :? :? :?

You should call Zondervan or James White, they're looking for blokes like you. You do a better job of defending modern versions than they do.

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[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.



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