This is just a quick opening post. I intend to post more later, but I'll just throw this out to get things started. Do you believe in a:
1. pre-tribulation rapture of the church,

2. mid-tribulation rapture of the church, or

3. post-tribulation (meaning at the end) rapture of the church?



Please give some reasons why, along with Scripture!

(PS - I am pre-trib - will post my reasons and Scripture later!!!)

Thanks!

this is interesting, I believe that it is pre trib and I think another one at the end, where those who ENDURE and not take the mark, but are not beheaded, will be raptured out as well and be a part of the marriage supper of the lamb.

I was told this, but I honestly have not done a real study on this, so I am interested in learning. I have always wanted to learn, please post what you have..

Thanks

Hi Steve!
The way that I read the Bible is that the resurrection is "the" doctrine and the rapture is the part that all the living believers (whether Jew or Gentile) have within that moment. The trumpet sounds and the dead go first and then we which remain after that trumpet will follow to meet them in the air. The nation of Israel cannot come to faith until the fulness of the gentiles have come in which I believe will take place after the great falling away within the western gentile church. For the past few centuries the focus has been with the gentiles and at the end it returns to the Jews and that's whenthings really start to hot up!
We are not the natural braches, they are and for now we have been reaping the blessings that were destined for them, but God is going to graft them back into their own olive tree and Christ will return for His complete bride (made up of both Jew and Gentile) as the cross of Christ has broken down that dividing barrier down that once stood between us.


God bless

PaulB

Here is where some people get their support for a Mid-Tribulation rapture:
Revelation 11:11-12 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

The context here is the Tribulation as described from Revelation 6-19, which culminates in the physical return of Jesus Christ to the earth to establish His Kingdom. The church is not mentioned or hinted at from Rev. 6-18, only reappearing in Rev. 19 in connection with the return of Christ. In other words, the Church is not on the earth during this period of time. Rev 11 discusses the two prophets, whom many believe to be Moses and Elijah, since they perform the same miracles that Moses and Elijah performed (Rev. 11:6). Revelation 7 details how 12,000 Jews from each tribe of Israel are pulled out as a remnant, totalling 144,000. These are sealed, and preached the gospel of the kingdom around the world. (Rev. 14:1-5) But, this does not fit with the Church, the Body of Christ! Note the following verses:

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

The Book of Revelation makes a clear distinction between the Jew and Greek, therefore it is safe to conclude that whatever is happening NOW in God's program will change during this period that Jesus Christ calls the Great Tribulation.

Therefore, I reject the idea of a Mid-Tribulation Rapture of the Church, since the Tribulation deals with the Jews, not the Body of Christ.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are some passages of Scripture used to prove that the Church will go through the entire Tribulation, and be taken out at the end.

Matthew 24:37-42 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

There is a similar passage in Luke 17:26-31
However, again, the context of Matthew 24 and Luke 17 have nothing to do with the Body of Christ, which Paul says is a great mystery (Eph. 5:32) that was not revealed until God personally taught him (Rom. 16:25-26, Gal. 1:11-17).



The context of Matthew 24:
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
This is not the gospel that we preach today. We don't have to endure anything. All we have to do is believe on Jesus Christ as our Saviour.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
We don't preach the gospel of the kingdom - we preach the gospel of the grace of God. The gospel of the kingdom is that the KING is coming to set up his Kingdom. We preach that Jesus Christ was crucified for our sins, He was buried, and He rose again the third day, and that only believing in HIM brings forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
The temple will be rebuilt, as implies here. This wicked man enters the temple, and stands in the holy place. (see II Thess. 2:3-4). We don't worship at a Temple, nor observe the Jewish OT law, ceremonies, etc. But they are during this period of time Jesus Christ prophesies about. Thus we can conclude that during this period of time, the Body of Christ is not the focal point, but rather the nation of Israel.

The Bible tells us that the Nation of Israel is NOT permanently put aside, but only temporarily.
Romans 11:25-26 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
WE do not observe the strict interpretation of the OT Law. The Law declares that the Sabbath is the seventh day. We worship on the first day to commemorate the resurrection of Christ. During this prophetic period of time Jesus is telling us about, the LAW is again in affect, and they are required to observe the Sabbath.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Signs are for the Jews - see I Cor. 1:22


Therefore, the context is clearly Jewish, which denies the mystery of the body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Gentile. The rapture described in the last part of Matthew 24 is a Jewish rapture of Tribulation saints just before the Lord returns to destroy the Antichrist's army. It is not a church age rapture. The context bears this out.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why I believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church

I Thess. 4:13-18 describes this event. The dead in Christ rise first, then we which are alive are caught up...to meet the Lord IN THE AIR. The context, even if we continue into chapter 5, never discusses the Lord returning to the earth, as Matthew 24 does, as well as Revelation 19. Therefore, this must be a different event.

Let us look at chapter 5 to see the context:
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
This will match Rev. 16:15 - the return of the Lord to the earth

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Note the pronoun "they" which refers to those who are not "us" - lost people. The term "travail" is used throughout the Bible when discussing the period of what Jesus called "the great tribulation."

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Note the pronoun "ye" to distinguish from "they." The lost world will be completly taken by surprise by the Lord's return, but we should be ready.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
The tribulation is refered to as the night. We are not part of that. We are part of the day. So whatever Paul is talking about here, it does not involve us. It happens to "them", not to "us".

1 Thessalonians 5:8-9 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
the hope of salvation is not referring to the salvation of our souls, but the salvation of our corruptible bodies. See Romans 8:18-25.
The term "wrath" is another term used throughout the Bible concerning the great "tribulation" period. God has not appointed us - the church - to wrath. We don't go through the tribulation period - this is reserved for the Jewish people and all gentile nations. We who are saved and part of the Body of Christ will be caught up.


Notice how that the rapture described in I Thess. 4 precedes this discussion of the tribulation in chapter 5!

Also, the other great passage on the rapture of the church is in I Cor. 15. There is no mention of any of the items that are listed in Revelation concerning this tribulation period. If you noticed, Matthew 24 had many similar plagues mentioned that will correspond to Revelation. This is not the case with I Thess. 4 or I cor. 15. Therefore, it is my conclusion that the rapture of the Church happens before the Tribulation that Jesus Christ prophesied in Matthew 24, and that John saw in Revelation 6-18.
In Christ,

THanks Paul - I'll get back to you soon. No offense taken!

this is great, I really love the explanation you gave Steve, it really does make so much sense.

I have had people say that it is only at the end, and we, HIS CHURCH, will be among the wrath, because of these verses:

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

And the verses following 7:3 about the 12 tribes. This person insists that we are in that of the lost tribes, and of course, that the lost tribes are white people. It is obviously a heresy, but some people have some crazy thoughts.

I also have read on a message board about one person and his church saying that revelation is not literal, but figurative and about the past.

From the moderator Steve!
Folks - I made a blunder here. I meant to QUOTE the post, and add my comments, but instead I hit "EDIT". What Paul wrote is in the quotation boxes. My responses here are in the grey field. I apologize for that. I have left it in the thread, since Paul and Bro. Parrish had an exchange about somethings in this post...SORRY!!! I will put all of Paul's quotes in RED so that it will be easier to see what he originally said!

Quote:

FROM PAUL - What I mean by that is there are too many inconstancies for a pre-trib rapture to hold any water. For instance, you say (and rightly so) that we are not appointed unto wrath (1 Thss.5:9) I agree complete;y. But by upholding the pre-trib view you are saying that all the recipients of the "second gospel" (whether they be Jewish evangelists or Gentile tribulation saints) are appointed unto it!

Yes. The Tribulation is the "time of Jacob's trouble." God promised Israel that He would judge them in His wrath if they forsook the Law. However, there is a remnant that is saved through it all! See Deut. 28!

Quote:

FROM PAUL - I would also like to know what place our present Bible holds in the hearts and minds of the recipients of the gospel that follows this "church age". Which promises will be relevant for them Daniel, Mt24 & Revelation? Or will they have another Bible to go by?

Red Herring! Straw Man!

Quote:

FROM PAUL - Personally, I don’t believe that we are appointed unto wrath but neither were the children of Israel when the plagues were poured out upon Egypt nor Noah when his world was destroyed at the judgement of God. They were protected by God when He carried these acts of judgement out!

Israel was NOT separated from the plagues until Exodus 8:22. So they had to endure some of the plagues. Further, the Passover was applicable to everyone. It did not matter who did NOT have the blood on the posts. If an Israelite did not have the blood on his doorposts, his firstborn would die!

Revelation 12 tells us that the woman (Israel) flees into the wilderness where the Devil himself will attempt to destroy her. He fails. God protects them. But they will still be on the same earth that will be reeling from God's judgments, as detailed in Revelation! They will still be faced with whether or not to take the mark of the beast!

Quote:

FROM PAUL - It isn’t that the church is a tribe of Israel or replaced Israel, the truth is that we have been included into the promises of Israel by the extended mercies of God. Christ is their & our King, their and our Saviour, their and our resurrection. Many in the pre-trib camp teach that the tribulation saints and their Israeli evangelists do not even partake in the resurrection but live on earth as they presently are (yes, in dishonour 1 Cor.15:42) for a thousand years bringing animal sacrifices to God!)

[b]Ephesians 2:11-20 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;[/b]
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Not so!

Notice this verse (you quoted!)

Romans 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.


We get in on the SPIRITUAL things - not the physical! WE are not given the land grant; we are not given the throne of David, etc.




1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

The Lord in the Scriptures notes THREE distinct people groups, even today! Jews, Gentiles, or the Church (In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek!).


In Christ,

The thing is; the tribulation is all about Israel (Jacob's trouble). Many of the plagues of Egypt were actually pictures of future events. Painful sores, water into blood, darkness, frogs, it's all coming in Rev. 16.

Now as for Noah, as we know he was not Jewish so I think he is a very good comparison; I actually often think about Noah when I think of the church and the rapture.

Noah and his family were lifted up above the destruction before it ever started. To me it's a perfect picture of the pre-tribulation rapture.

Granted Bro Parish that the time of Jacob’s trouble is about Israel (in Jeremiah chapter 30), but even if that is specifically speaking about the great tribulation period described in the book of Revelation, it in no way proves anything concerning a pre-trib rapture of a gentile church. I can’t find the name Jacob anywhere in the pages of Revelation. All it proves if anything is that Israel are going to go through the mill when the heat is turned up, but that also applies to all;


2 Tm2:3 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come"



Lk.21.25-26 "
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."



I could use the argument that Jacob isn’t mentioned here so that must prove that this tribe also disappeared before all of this happened!


I also don’t see how Noah is a clear comparison to a pre-trib rapture of the church, but I do see how Noah’s deliverance applies to the saving grace of God when judgement is executed. Also Noah wasn’t taken up seven years prior to the judgement but on the day that it fell upon the world, which is also the very point that our Lord makes:


Lk.17:26-30 "
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."



Yes, the world wasn’t prepared for the destruction that suddenly came upon it, and in just the same way it won’t be ready for it a second time when Christ returns in splendour and glory to destroy His enemies.


One of the major problems with a pre-trib rapture is that the (even more major) even is being overlooked (i.e. that of the resurrection of the dead). It is one thing to have a minority of the world’s population to suddenly vanish into thin air, but another all together for the grave of every dead believer to deliver its resident and go unnoticed! (We which are alive go up with them!)



Good descussion!


God bless

PaulB