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 Post subject: Natural man and the gospel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:06 pm 
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1Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Can the natural man believe the gospel; ie, is the gospel a deep thing of God.

That's a Calvinist's claim to justify regeneration before faith. The argument sounds logical; I'm looking for a verse that supports natural man believing the gospel.
I suspect that the matter of the heart is a soul issue and not a spiritual issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Natural man and the gospel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:50 pm 
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PeanutGallery wrote:
1Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Can the natural man believe the gospel; ie, is the gospel a deep thing of God.

That's a Calvinist's claim to justify regeneration before faith. The argument sounds logical; I'm looking for a verse that supports natural man believing the gospel.
I suspect that the matter of the heart is a soul issue and not a spiritual issue.


How about:
Quote:
[Rom 1:18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; [Rom 1:19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. [Rom 1:20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
It appears that God shows things to the unsaved in these verses.

The Gospel is a deep thing of God, and, though I'm saved, I still don't believe I fully undertand it, yet knowing why we need to be saved and how to be saved, is not so deep. Natural man can understand we're sinners, and that we need Christ. Belief is, in a sense, simple, not a deep thing.

Quote:
[John 16:7] Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. [John 16:8] And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: [John 16:9] Of sin, because they believe not on me; [John 16:10] Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; [John 16:11] Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Here, we have the Holy Spirit reproving the unsaved (nonbelievers) of sin. So it would seem He does reveal things to the unsaved.

Also see:
Quote:
[Rom 2:13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [Rom 2:14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [Rom 2:15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


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 Post subject: Re: Natural man and the gospel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:26 pm 
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PeanutGallery wrote:
...I'm looking for a verse that supports natural man believing the gospel.
Then I think there are several, or more, verses that indicate that belief is a conscious decision.
Quote:
[Matt 11:28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [Matt 11:29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Quote:
[Rev 3:20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Quote:
[John 3:18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [John 3:19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [John 3:20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [John 3:21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So much of this seems meaningless to me if God decreed who would be saved before the foundation of the world, including the commands to be saved, such as:
Quote:
[Acts 3:19] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Quote:
[Acts 17:30] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Seems strange that God would command all men to repent if he has already decreed that they will be condemned forever and doesn't give them the means to do what He commands.
PeanutGallery wrote:
I suspect that the matter of the heart is a soul issue and not a spiritual issue.
:idea:


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 Post subject: Re: Natural man and the gospel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:37 pm 
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Quote:
[Rom 10:9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Calvinists believe that if you believe, then you are already saved, not as the King James says, "thou shalt be saved".


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 Post subject: Re: Natural man and the gospel
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:07 am 
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Jeff wrote:
Quote:
[Rom 10:9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Calvinists believe that if you believe, then you are already saved, not as the King James says, "thou shalt be saved".

They have philosophical and poetic license; they do the same with Eph 1:13; they claim regeneration is a different event than being sealed with the Holy Spirit. Thus, one is regenerated before they believe and sealed after they believe.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

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 Post subject: Re: Natural man and the gospel
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:07 am 
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PeanutGallery wrote:
Can the natural man believe the gospel...

The natural man can believe the gospel and receive Christ, just like he can drink water...

“But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.” - John 4:14

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God” - John 1:12
PeanutGallery wrote:
...is the gospel a deep thing of God.

There are deep mysteries involved, such as God being manifest in flesh (1 Timothy 3:16), but the Gospel message itself is simple enough for a child to grasp and receive...

“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” - 2 Cor 11:3

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The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalms 12:6-7


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