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 Post subject: Re: Refuting the Seventh-day Adventists
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:56 pm 
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Baptist1611 wrote:
Soldier4Christ wrote:

In terms of death and hell, there is a lot of significant word-choices that allude to the teachings of soul-sleep and annihilation; words such as perish, consume, die, sleep, cut off, put out, destroy, etc. Adventists will use Jude 7 as one defense, because Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning today, yet, they are set forth as an example of the punishment of "eternal fire." Malachi 4:3 is also another verse they use, stating the wicked will be ashes under the soles of our feet. There are places in the Bible where death is compared to sleep. Can you refute these statements?

I do not see Malachi 4:3 as a doctrinal statement on eternal punishment.

Okay, basically humans have three parts -- body, soul and spirit. Sometimes the words are used interchangeably in the Bible but doctrinally they are different! Doctrinally, we Baptists believe it is only the BODIES that are said to sleep in the graves, not the souls.

1 THES 5:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are ASLEEP.

When a Christian leaves his body, he has a confidence that he will be present with the Lord, so obviously it is the body which remains behind and is said to "sleep" here on earth -->

2 COR 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY, and to be present with the Lord.

Soldier4Christ wrote:
There are also other verses that seem to suggest the other theory on death however, that souls depart to be with the Lord. (Gen. 35:18 for instance) But the Bible also says "the soul that sinneth, it shall die." The question to ask is "what is death?"

This death is understood to be the "second death" of REV 20. The unsaved souls are judged, then cast alive into the fire and there will be everlasting torment -- this is how a soul experiences "death" in the eyes of God:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND DEATH. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Soldier4Christ wrote:
Another question about death is the judgement. Hebrews 9:27 says after death comes the judgment, but I heard David Daniels from Chick Publications talk about hell, that wicked will be in torments, and eventually flipped from the frying pan into the skillet. Something like, that they people go to heaven or hell right away, but then are judged and then taken to their final destination. Maybe it has something to do with the soul going there first, then their body being resurrected to join them in their final destination. Can you shed some light on this area please?

Yes sir, it's right there in the passage I posted for you above.
Briefly, our doctrine is that Hell is a temporary place of fiery punishment for the unsaved in the heart of the earth, it is located near another temporary holding place for OT saints, which Jesus called "Abraham's Bosom" or paradise but AB/paradise is now empty since Jesus went down there and led those people out per EPH 4:8-9.

Hell is not empty and it never fills up, whenever it gets too crowded it enlarges itself per Isaiah 5:14. Eventually hell will be tossed into the lake of fire, along with all the unsaved.

In the Bible, human bodies are reunited with their souls in various resurrection events throughout scripture, including both small scale events like maybe Jonas who died in the great fish and also major events like the GWTJ in REV 20.

Soldier4Christ wrote:
If Luke 16:13-29 is NOT a parable, then it is a very chilling account, and that man is burning right now at this very moment; something not to be taken lightly..

Yes sir, we believe Luke 16:13-29 is not a parable -- as far as I know, Jesus never used names in parables. Hope this helps, I will try and get back to the rest later!


I appreciate you taking to time to respond to this doctrine, and your response. 1 Thes. 5:14 was very convincing, because it's talking about those that SLEEP in Jesus, will God bring with Him (when He returns). This may add to the context of a verse like 1 Thes. 4:16, when it talks about the dead in Christ rising first; in other words, their bodies will be resurrected to meet their soul, which 5:14 says God will bring those who SLEEP in Jesus when He returns. This implies their souls are with the Lord. I was also aware of some of the verses where Paul says he desires to depart and be with Christ (which is far better), and absent from the body, and present with the Lord.

How do you refute a verse like Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 to an Adventist believer?

Quote:
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


Quote:
Yes sir, it's right there in the passage I posted for you above.
Briefly, our doctrine is that Hell is a temporary place of fiery punishment for the unsaved in the heart of the earth, it is located near another temporary holding place for OT saints, which Jesus called "Abraham's Bosom" or paradise but AB/paradise is now empty since Jesus went down there and led those people out per EPH 4:8-9.


This would also explain Matthew 27:52 “and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.”

My question to you is: Did Jesus go to “paradise” when he died, or did he descend into hell. In Luke 23:43, Jesus said he would be going to paradise when he died, but some teach Christ went to hell for 3 days and 3 nights. There are Scriptures talking about Him dwelling in the heart of the earth, and not leaving His soul in hell, or suffering His Holy One to see corruption.


Any sect that teaches annihilation would logically have to teach that Luke 16 contained a parable. Although the rich man was not mentioned by name, there was Lazarus and Abraham mentioned. Jesus also indicated in other parables “Hear the parable of the sower!,” for example. Nowhere does he say “Hear the parable of the rich man in hell!”

That’s my take on it. Thanks again for you response!
Matt

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 Post subject: Re: Refuting the Seventh-day Adventists
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:52 pm 
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Soldier4Christ wrote:
Did Jesus go to “paradise” when he died, or did he descend into hell. In Luke 23:43, Jesus said he would be going to paradise when he died, but some teach Christ went to hell for 3 days and 3 nights. There are Scriptures talking about Him dwelling in the heart of the earth, and not leaving His soul in hell, or suffering His Holy One to see corruption.

Both. They are both parts or divisions of the same underworld, as is Tartarus; another realm where Christ went to preach to the fallen angels chained in darkness (see Jude 1:6, also 2 Pet. 2:4, 1 Pet. 3:18-20). Old English hel, helle, from Proto-Germanic haljo "the underworld," as shown in Larkin's charts.

In one great act of sovereignty, Jesus brought freedom and deliverance to the souls of the Old Testament held in paradise, and also preached to the doomed, wicked captives of hell; which Scripture reveals to be a horrible prison—complete with fire, bars and locking gates—and the Lord Jesus Himself holds the keys (Jonah 2:6, Matt. 16:18, Rev. 1:18).

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 Post subject: Re: Refuting the Seventh-day Adventists
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:47 pm 
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Can you refute the Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 reference, and also Ezekiel 18:4?

Quote:
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


Quote:
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


I think the issue is not whether the body returns to the dust of the earth at death, nor the spirit returning to God at death, but the main issue is what happens to the soul. One band says it goes with the body back to dust, and essentially ceases to exist, the other says the soul goes with the spirit back to God. What did Satan mean when he told Eve "ye shall not surely die?" Was he referring to their mortal souls (as Adventist believe), or do we have immortal souls? Is there any Scriptural references that provide more clarity, and give more insight as to what is the truth?

Thanks!

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"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." – Ephesians 6:11


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 Post subject: Re: Refuting the Seventh-day Adventists
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:37 pm 
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Soldier4Christ wrote:
Can you refute the Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 reference, and also Ezekiel 18:4?

Hi Matthew,


I think we need to be careful when trying to follow books like Ecclesiastes. Solomon, at least in much of the book, is seeking the wisdom of man, and showing its vanity, and the wisdom of man is contrasted with the wisdom of God. Chapter 9 seems to be a continuation of what preceded:
Quote:
[Eccl 8:16] ¶ When I applied mine heart to know wisdom, and to see the business that is done upon the earth: (for also there is that neither day nor night seeth sleep with his eyes:) [Eccl 8:17] Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.


It seems to me that if you take this passage as the final word, then the message is to eat, drink, and be merry; and that it doesn't matter if we serve the Lord or not in the end, which we know not to be the real Biblical message, or Solomon's conclusion in the end:
Quote:
[Eccl 12:13] ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.


Quote:
[Ezek 18:4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Isn't this just referring to spiritual death, much as when God told Adam that he would die?


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 Post subject: Re: Refuting the Seventh-day Adventists
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:54 am 
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Soldier4Christ wrote:
Can you refute the Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 reference, and also Ezekiel 18:4?

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

What is there to refute? :?
Seems pretty simple -- obviously he's talking about the dead bodies of the wicked, not souls. Do you remember what I told you in my earlier response? Humans have three parts -- body, soul and spirit. Doctrinally, we Baptists believe it is only the BODIES that are said to sleep in the graves, not the souls. It is the dead BODY that no longer has any feeling or knowledge. If you apply any of those attributes from ECC 9:5-6 to a person's lifeless, dead carcass of rotting flesh you will see there is your answer!

Soldier4Christ wrote:
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

I already answered this one -- he's talking about the second death of REV 20.

This death is understood to be the "second death" of REV 20. The unsaved souls are judged, then cast alive into the fire and there will be everlasting torment -- this is how a soul experiences "death" in the eyes of God:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND DEATH. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Soldier4Christ wrote:
I think the issue is not whether the body returns to the dust of the earth at death, nor the spirit returning to God at death, but the main issue is what happens to the soul. One band says it goes with the body back to dust, and essentially ceases to exist, the other says the soul goes with the spirit back to God.

As we have already seen -- Luke 16 pretty much blows your first theory out of the water because the rich man's soul did not "cease to exist!" Luke tells you his body was buried but he lived on in the afterlife. His soul was alive in every way and tormented in the fire, just as it still is today! You also have the perfect illustration of Jesus who's body was buried in the tomb but He lived on and was very active both before and after His resurrection!

SDA will attempt to avoid the reality of a living conscious soul after death, but Luke 16 cannot be ignored, nor can we ignore the passages in REV 20 or MATT 25 -->

REV 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

MATT 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Soldier4Christ wrote:
What did Satan mean when he told Eve "ye shall not surely die?" Was he referring to their mortal souls (as Adventist believe), or do we have immortal souls? Is there any Scriptural references that provide more clarity, and give more insight as to what is the truth?

Humans have eternal souls, that depart when we die per GEN 35:18.
These millions of souls have to go somewhere!
Luke 16 and 2 COR 5:8 tell us very clearly and where they go.
It's perfectly clear, just believe your King James Bible. :)

The way I see it, Adam and Eve were unique cases in that they had spiritual life and fellowship as adults but lost it. When Satan lied to Eve he did not reveal that they would die SPIRITUALLY and her husband ushered in death per ROM 5:12, and this is how she was deceived. Her body did not die immediately nor did her soul -- but something inside her definitely died that day, she was suddenly in a spiritual mess so bad that only a blood sacrifice could cover it up per GEN 3:21!

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 Post subject: Re: Refuting the Seventh-day Adventists
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:17 pm 
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Hello Matthew,

I had many of the same questions as you have, shortly after I was saved.
Here is one of the finest works on the topic, please order it and read it.

http://store.kjv1611.org/body-soul-spirit/

Also available in Kindle format from Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Body-Soul-Spirit ... merReviews

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The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalms 12:6-7


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 Post subject: Re: Refuting the Seventh-day Adventists
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:56 pm 
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Quote:
I already answered this one -- he's talking about the second death of REV 20.


I apologize for bringing up an issue that was already addressed. I guess I didn't realize.

It shouldn't matter what the word's definition means to us, but how God defines these words as in His word. Being cast into the Lake of Fire is defined as "the second death" according to Revelation 21:8. Our hearts can be deceitful, so it doesn't matter what WE think Scripture means. Clearly, everlasting punishment is compared with the everlasting fire, such fire "shall never be quenched." It DOES NOT say the first will not be quenched UNTIL it accomplishes its purpose; that's ADDING to the word of God. It DOES NOT say the RESULTS of the punishment of the fire will last forever, in the sense that the fire will consume the wicked so that they will cease to exist forever. Jesus would've clarified better if this was the case. He simply tells us three things about hell: it's an everlasting punishment that is also an everlasting fire prepared for Satan and his angels, and the fire shall never be quenched. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, and there will be no rest day or night for them... It's a terrible thing to think about, but if you're saved, it's nothing to worry about. It should serve at motivation / fuel to witness to the lost souls that are headed in that direction, to plant the seeds to them.

All I'm going to say is that cults are good at what they do: indoctrination. The Catholics do it, Mormons do it, and even the Seventh-day Adventists too. It can be difficult to depart from their teachings after you've spent a lot of time studying / learning it. But again, God's word is to be our final authority.

Thanks again for your patience.
Matt

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 Post subject: Re: Refuting the Seventh-day Adventists
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:34 pm 

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Refuting? But Jeremiah 23:1 talks those who does harm to God's Sheep.....

God KNOWS who is searching for him regardless of what they/we are being taught.


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 Post subject: Re: Refuting the Seventh-day Adventists
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:35 pm 
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urbrother wrote:
Refuting? But Jeremiah 23:1 talks those who does harm to God's Sheep.....

God KNOWS who is searching for him regardless of what they/we are being taught.



We need to beware of damnable heresies that creep into the church (2 Pet. 2:1), and other gospels as Paul warns about in Galatians 1.

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 Post subject: Re: Refuting the Seventh-day Adventists
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:36 pm 
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Colossians 2:16 says "Let no man judge you in meat..." 1 Tim. 4:4 says every creature of God is good.

This may seem like a dumb question because of context, but how would we refute the idea that cannibalism is now acceptable? Men are "creatures" (creations) of God. It was something I thought of today at supper, kind of a temptation. There are probably people out there, Bible skeptics or whoever, that make such claims.

I could've ate pepperoni today on a pizza, but I took it off and just ate the pizza around it. I suppose I'm still not entirely comfortable with the idea of eating unclean foods. I am still "weak," according to Rom. 14.

1 Tim. 4:1-5, and Romans 14:1-4, 14, 17, and 20 are all convincing verses that seem to be saying it's okay to eat anything now. Jesus even said nothing that goes into a man defiles him, but that which comes out.

To add this thought for the forum, I will make mention of it here: What about drink? "Let no man judge you in... drink..." I personally believe Christians should not drink alcohol, but someone may use this verse to justify it. Any refutations good refutations for that idea?

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