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 Post subject: Creation, Evolution, and Children
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:30 pm 
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I love Bill Nye.
That being said, please take the time to review this very short clip in which this lovable T.V. scientists tries and fails to break my heart. This is my personal response and opinions in regards to this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHbYJfwFgOU

What is unique to the United States is not that people believe in creation theories, but that people believe that education should exclude ideas about how our universe began that do not go hand in hand with Darwinism and evolution. Shouldn't children be offered manifold theories of creation and be allowed to formulate their own ideas and opinions as they learn and grow?
Mr. Nye quoted his old professor, Carl Sagan, stating that "When you're in love, you want to tell the world." I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. I fell in love the word of God, and I want to tell the world; this includes children! Mr. Nye also states that when you do not believe in evolution, your world becomes "fantastically complicated." If I am not mistaken, the world is by definition "complicated," and "fantastically" so:

complicated

: hard to understand, explain, or deal with : having many parts or steps


Full Definition of complicated
1
: consisting of parts intricately combined <a complicated recipe>
2
: difficult to analyze, understand, or explain <a complicated issue>

fantastic or fantastical

adjective

1.
conceived or appearing as if conceived by an unrestrained imagination; odd and remarkable; bizarre; grotesque:
fantastic rock formations; fantastic designs.
2.
fanciful or capricious, as persons or their ideas or actions:
We never know what that fantastic creature will say next.
3.
imaginary or groundless in not being based on reality; foolish or irrational:
fantastic fears.
4.
extravagantly fanciful; marvelous.
5.
incredibly great or extreme; exorbitant:
to spend fantastic sums of money.
6.
highly unrealistic or impractical; outlandish:
a fantastic scheme to make a million dollars betting on horse races.
7.
Informal. extraordinarily good:
a fantastic musical.


Mr. Nye, with such a brilliant mind, insinuates that children who are taught, or believe in biblical or any other creation theory besides evolution are incapable of becoming "...scientifically literate voters and taxpayers for the future. We need engineers that can build stuff, solve problems..." What evidence substantiates the theory that children who are taught or believe in anything besides evolution are incapable of becoming responsible, educated, and successful adults? How did we get here thus far? Is not the world we live in built upon the ideas and discoveries of many men and women who believed in some form of divine creation? Were people incapable of being "scientific" before the theory of evolution came about? Not all scientists dispute creation theories. And yet, those scientists continue to be intelligent and capable people.

I also refuse to accept Mr. Nye's idea that "...In another couple centuries th-that world view, I'm sure, will be ... just wont exist. It's, it's ... there's no evidence for it." God has made himself quite evident in my own life, and in the lives of countless others I am sure. (He has had a way of doing this since the beginning of time.) So long as our country is free, children should be allowed to learn about all ideas of how the universe came to be; being free to believe as they wish!

I am utterly thankful that I live in a land where when children ask me questions, I am allowed to give them answers from the word of God.

If you believe in creation or more specifically, the bible, please take a moment to reflect on some scripture that came to mind while dealing with this topic. Let us remember Mr. Nye in prayer. If you do not believe, then thank you for reading and please consider that we all started out as children who were offered a world of information to dissect, digest, and make sense of. Many children who have learned about the bible's and other's creation stories have grown, and still grow up to become successful, functioning members of society. It is not yet altogether unheard of.


"Science" is not excluded from the bible:

Daniel 1:3 ¶ And the king spake unto Ashpenaz the master of his eunuchs, that he should bring certain of the children of Israel, and of the king’s seed, and of the princes; 4 Children in whom was no blemish, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability in them to stand in the king’s palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans.

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.


Should we argue over this issue?

Proverbs 23:12 Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. 9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain


1 Timothy 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the livingGod, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach. 12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

Will creation theories not based in evolution become obsolete?

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.


http://www.scientificamerican.com/…/evolution-education-ab…/


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 Post subject: Re: Creation, Evolution, and Children
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:09 am 
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Thanks for the post, it's a good subject.

I'm only familiar with Bill Nye from the debate he has had with Ken Ham on creationism. If you haven't seen it you can find it on Youtube by searching "bill nye creationism debate". It's been a long time since I've watched it but I remember he kept deriding the Bible as being translated from ancient manuscripts (I remember thinking how he and the modern versionists may agree, in a way. I tend to see parallels between evolution and modern textual criticism.), and made himself out to be so much smarter and capable (more evolved, apparently) than biblical figures like Noah, and probably people like us who have less developed brains than him. And lately he's been on the news talking about how stupid people are who question the reality or cause of climate change, or something like that. Maybe because I've never seen him otherwise, I haven't found him especially lovable, but your godly concern and view of him is commendable.

Another reference that comes to my mind is Romans 1.

Also, if I remember, Bro. Parrish and others have discussed the role that past Christians have had in science. Christian scientists have made many discoveries. I also have a book on my computer by Henry Morris called, Men of Science - Men of God.

Here are some of the contents:

Leonardo da Vinci
Johann Kepler
Francis Bacon
Blaise Pascal
Robert Boyle
John Ray
Nicolaus Steno
Thomas Burnet
Athanasius Kircher
John Wilkins
Walter Charleton
Sir William Petty
Isaac Barrow
Increase Mather
Nehemiah Grew
Galileo
Robert Hooke
William Harvey
Christian Huygens
Tycho Brahe
Nicholas Copernicus
Isaac Newton
William Whiston
John Woodward
Carolus Linnaeus
Jonathan Edwards
William Herschel
John Harris
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz
John Flamsteed
William Derham
Cotton Mather
John Hutchinson
Gustavus Brander
Jean Deluc
Richard Kirwan
James Parkinson
Michael Faraday
Humphrey Davy
Georges Cuvier
Timothy Dwight
Benjamin Silliman
Charles Bell
William Buckland
Charles Babbage
David Brewster
John Herschel
John Dalton
William Kirby
Jedidiah Morse
Benjamin Barton
Samuel Miller
John Kidd
Peter Mark Roget
Thomas Chalmers
William Prout
Samuel F. B. Morse
Joseph Henry
Matthew Maury
James Simpson
James Joule
Adam Sedgwick
William Whewell
Henry Rogers
Louis Agassiz
James Dana
John William Dawson
George Stokes
Charles Piazzi Smyth
Rudolph Virchow
Philip H. Gosse
Gregor Mendel
Louis Pasteur
Henri Fabre
William Thompson, Lord Kelvin
Joseph Lister
Joseph Clerk Maxwell
Bernhard Riemann
John Bell Pettigrew
George Romanes
Richard Owen
Edward Hitchcock
Sir Henry Rawlinson
Sir Joseph Henry Gilbert
Thomas Anderson
Sir William Huggins
Balfour Stewart
P. G. Tait
John Murray
James Glaisher
Edward H. Maunder
William Mitchell Ramsay
John Strutt, Lord Rayleigh
Alexander MacAlister
A. H. Sayce
John Ambrose Fleming
Howard A. Kelly
George Washington Carver
Charles Stine
Douglas Dewar
Paul Lemoine
William Ramsay
Wernher von Braun
Sir William Abney
A. Rendle Short
L. Merson Davies
Sir Cecil P. G. Wakeley



Evolution appeals to the operation of physical, chemical and mathematical laws to explain its processes, but remains forever silent on how these laws came to be or why they are as they are and not otherwise. E. H. Andrews

A number of materialist thinkers have ascribed to blind evolution more miracles, more improbable coincidences and wonders, than all those who believe in God's purpose and design could ever devise.
Isaac Bashevis Singer


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 Post subject: Re: Creation, Evolution, and Children
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:22 pm 
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I got a chance to look up some of the old discussions. There is a lot of interesting stuff. May be missing a lot too.

Over 3 Million Tune in for Bill Nye/Ken Ham Creation Debate

Creation in the Public Schools?

Science and the Bible

Stephen Hawkins Says Science Will Win Over Religion

Dinosaurs and Dragons

Ardi - The Latest Lie In The Religion Of Evolution


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 Post subject: Re: Creation, Evolution, and Children
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:53 pm 
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Thank you so much for links!!


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 Post subject: Re: Creation, Evolution, and Children
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:42 am 
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You're welcome. I'd be interested in any other thoughts you or anyone may have.

I watched that Ken Ham and Bill Nye Creation Debate again. It does strike me how Bill Nye kept referring to the Bible as an ancient document that has been translated over and over again into American English. The Bible is a meaningless book if you don't believe God had anything to do with it, and the modern versionists are headed in the same direction. Nye's implication was that the Bible, being thousands of years old, and recopied, and translated into English, is necessarily full of mistakes. Most churches seem to agree more and more as they "evolve". Even Ken Ham seemed to use the NKJV. At least Henry Morris used the KJV. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=277 (Should Creationists Abandon the King James Version?)

Nye also said something right at the end that struck me. He said something to the effect that we're products of the universe, and we're the universe's way of knowing itself. So who is Nye's god? Is the universe his god, or is man god because of his intelligence, or is man at one with and the brain of god the universe? If man is god, or the brain of god, what about those he considers of inferior intellect, like Creationists? Or are we just all a part of an imperfect god? Or is Bill Nye his own god? Whatever it is, it's a dying god, unless mankind can live on forever, or the universe can create something else to figure itself out. Assuming, of course, that the universe can defeat the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, or keep recreating itself, or is an open system with other "naturally" occurring energy coming from another larger god outside itself, which raises a whole other set of questions. :?

[Job 12:2] No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you.

What it comes down to is that nothing makes sense without the Bible, and the Bible makes no sense without God. It seems to take a lot of faith to be faithless.

I hope I make some sense, I confuse myself trying to think like a secularist, or even a modern versionist.

[Rom 1:22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


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 Post subject: Re: Creation, Evolution, and Children
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:39 pm 
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Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

(Amen).


Jeff wrote:
nothing makes sense without the Bible, and the Bible makes no sense without God.



I think people can read and read and read the bible, but without believing in it, what will they profit?

I, like most bible-believers, believe knowledge, understanding, and wisdom come from scripture. We may (I have) certainly study the philosophies and ideas of men, but when it comes down to it, none of us truly know or understand anything without having our minds rooted in the word of truth, and keeping said words in our hearts as we grow.


Deuteronomy 11:18 ¶ Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

Deuteronomy 30:11 ¶ For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Deuteronomy 32: 45 And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel: 46 And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law. 47 For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

Job 22: 22 Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart. 23 If thou return to the Almighty, thou shalt be built up, thou shalt put away iniquity far from thy tabernacles.

Job 33: 3 My words shall be of the uprightness of my heart: and my lips shall utter knowledge clearly. 4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

Psalm 119: 10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments. 11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. 12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.

Psalm 119: 161 ש (SCHIN). Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word. 162 I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil. 163 I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love. 164 Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments.

Proverbs 4: 1 Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding. 2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law. 3 For I was my father’s son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother. 4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live. 5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. 6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee. 7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. 8 Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her. 9 She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.

Proverbs 22: 15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. 16 He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want. 17 Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply thine heart unto my knowledge. 18 For it is a pleasant thing if thou keep them within thee; they shall withal be fitted in thy lips.

Proverbs 23:12 Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.

Jeremiah 15: 16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Ezekiel 3:10 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears.

Daniel 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Romans 16: 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2: 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

2 Peter 1: 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Revelation 17: 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


I believe there is much wisdom to be gained by studying the word of God, and not philosophies (sciences) of man alone. In my opinion, Proverbs is a good starting point. Take for instance, Proverbs 1:

Proverbs 1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel; 2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding; 3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity; 4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion. 5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: 6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
7 ¶ The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. 8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother: 9 For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.
10 ¶ My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not. 11 If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause: 12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit: 13 We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil: 14 Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse: 15 My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path: 16 For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood. 17 Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird. 18 And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives. 19 So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof.
20 ¶ Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: 21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, 22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? 23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 ¶ Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; 25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: 26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; 27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. 28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: 29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: 30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. 31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. 32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. 33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.


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 Post subject: Re: Creation, Evolution, and Children
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:19 pm 
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http://www.icr.org/article/newton/

Above is a link to an ICR article about issac newton

I like how Mr. Newton said "Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done."


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