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 Post subject: By their fruits?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:38 am 
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How does one tell the difference between a false convert and a deceived child of God?

Scenario:
a) claims to be saved,
b) states shacking up is not a sin because they are not under the law (antinomianism),
c) refuses correction.

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 Post subject: Re: By their fruits?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:12 pm 
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Hello Peanut; that is a really good question.
I don't think you can tell, because man can't look on the heart.
I'm not sure you can always tell by the fruit either.

Take a look at 2 Peter 1:4-7. The Bible teaches us that there are saved people walking around who never add anything to their faith. Instead, they never grow or they backslide and become very worldly; some have even forgotten they were purged from their sins (vs. 9). For these folks, revival and recommitment to Christ would be in order, because in the context of this verse, it is entirely possible for a believer to get to the place where they are "unfruitful" in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (vs 8). Clearly they are saved, but there is no fruit.

That concept by itself seems to contradict Matt 7:17, which says "every good tree bringeth forth good fruit." But I'm not sure he's talking about believers today who are sealed with the Holy Spirit in that passage. I try to be very careful with my doctrinal application of the Gospels.

At any rate, I think it's safe to say that we have saved people walking among us today who seem like they are lost, and there are also others, even clergy, rabbis, priests and preachers, who can minister for years and never get saved; even doing great works in the name of the Lord; they actually "think" they are saved because of their good deeds, but in the future it will be made plain that the Lord does not know them (Matt 7:22).

With both of these scenarios being very real, I don't see how can we possibly know who is a 'false convert' and who isn't. It appears that you can have a saved person who is not producing fruit, and also have an unsaved person who appears to be very fruitful. And since man looketh on the outward appearance, well... there you have it.

I'll tell you this; a good friend of mine who is a pastor was married to his wife for many years and she only recently claimed that she got saved, which stunned a lot of people who knew her. She knew in her heart she wasn't saved, but none of us realized it. I know her family, and this dear woman was raised in an IFB church by Christian parents, but she told me straight up that she was never saved until recently.

"Shacking up," this can be for a lot of different reasons. Usually the man wants no commitment; but sometimes the woman doesn't. Lack of respect for each other I suppose. Parents may be divorced, leaving a legacy there. With the way our culture and courts have trashed and destroyed marriage between a man and a woman, it's a wonder anyone understands it anymore; especially if they don't go to church.

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 Post subject: Re: By their fruits?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:17 pm 
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Bro. Parrish wrote:
...
Take a look at 2 Peter 1:4-7.

2Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pet 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pet 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pet 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pet 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pet 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

I'm wondering if 2Pet is in regards to those who lack charity between church members, not living in sin as in 1Cor 5.
....................................
Quote:
"Shacking up," this can be for a lot of different reasons. Usually the man wants no commitment; but sometimes the woman doesn't. Lack of respect for each other I suppose.

I've struggled with this for quite awhile; at one end there is false convert due to easy believism and the other end false convert due to lordship salvation.
I guess the only thing to do is pray that God give them repentance.

2Tim 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Tim 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

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 Post subject: Re: By their fruits?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:37 pm 
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Location: Amarillo, TX
Peanut
What I usually do is ask for their testimony of salvation. If it comes back as something like, "When I was 10 I prayed a prayer..." then I have strong reason to doubt. A saved person knows they are saved because they trusted in Christ, not because they prayed a prayer.
If I am not sure of it, I will generally ask them again somewhere down the line - like a week or two later. I may ask 3 or 4 times about their testimony. Usually by the 3rd time, they will get frustrated and ask me why I keep asking them. Then I can tell them that I am very concerned for their salvation, and that I want to make absolutely sure in my own mind that they are saved. When they balk at that, I just say that I don't understand how somebody who claims to be saved by Jesus Christ could live a life that is so wilfully, stubbornly, rebelliously contrary to the word of God. It is not "antinomianism." Paul speaks of a GREATER LAW - the Law of Christ. Gal. 5:1-13 is crystal clear - being free from the OT law does not give us license to live any way that we want to, we are to be filled with the fruits of the spirit, and NOT walk after the flesh. Romans 8 is also another great passage to use.
If they are truly born again - and they could be - they need to be reminded about the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Some other verses to use - I Cor. 3:11-17 - park on v. 17. Also II Cor. 5:10.

Yes, there are times when it is difficult to tell. But if they continue to profess salvation through Jesus Christ, all we can do is take them at their word.

In Christ,

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Psalm 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.


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 Post subject: Re: By their fruits?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:07 pm 
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Steve Schwenke wrote:
...
If I am not sure of it, I will generally ask them again somewhere down the line -

That would then be my prayer request; that God provide the opportunity.

You're right though, one would think that any true believer would be freely willing to share their testimony.

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 Post subject: Re: By their fruits?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:24 am 
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PeanutGallery wrote:
I'm wondering if 2Pet is in regards to those who lack charity between church members, not living in sin as in 1Cor 5.


To me, 2 Peter 1:4-7 is about personal spiritual growth.
He's talking about adding the building blocks of a spiritual life.
Peter says, "add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge," and so on.

So the point is, some believers never add to their faith, ergo they never grow. If you think about it, this was the root of the problem in the carnal Corinthian church as well. Paul couldn't even communicate with them on a spiritual level because they were like babies...

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able." - 1 Cor. 3:1-2.

Assuming they are saved, perhaps if the co-habitating couple gets some personal discipleship and exposure to the Word of God (i.e. Church, Bible Study, Sunday School, etc.) then they will grow to the point where they recognize the Holy Spirit is nudging them away from the carnal lifestyle.

I have seen this happen with a carnal couple years ago; they were living together when our little outreach group knocked on their door one day. Both claimed to be saved, but personal lives were a mess. She decided to come to church. At first the man wouldn't go to church, but agreed to adult Sunday School. Our strategy was for the men in our group to reach out to the man (via fishing trips, outings, friendship, etc) and the women in our group did the same with the female, and it took a while but eventually they ended up joining the church, getting married there and started a ministry of their own. Did we change their lives? No, we just got them involved for a while so they could get exposure to the real agent of change; and we know what that is, the KJB has real power, my friend.

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The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalms 12:6-7


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 Post subject: Re: By their fruits?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:02 am 
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Bro. Parrish wrote:
...
To me, 2 Peter 1:4-7 is about personal spiritual growth.
He's talking about adding the building blocks of a spiritual life.
Peter says, "add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge," and so on.

So the point is, some believers never add to their faith, ergo they never grow. If you think about it, this was the root of the problem in the carnal Corinthian church as well. Paul couldn't even communicate with them on a spiritual level because they were like babies...

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able." - 1 Cor. 3:1-2.
Yeah, I can see it now.



Quote:
... the KJB has real power, my friend.

I realize that more and more as time goes by.

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 Post subject: Re: By their fruits?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:02 pm 
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Location: Amarillo, TX
Br Parrish - wonderful story about that couple.

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Liberty Baptist Church
Amarillo, TX
Psalm 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.


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 Post subject: Re: By their fruits?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:37 pm 
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Steve Schwenke wrote:
What I usually do is ask for their testimony of salvation.

Bro. Parrish wrote:
...
I'll tell you this; a good friend of mine who is a pastor was married to his wife for many years and she only recently claimed that she got saved, which stunned a lot of people who knew her. She knew in her heart she wasn't saved, but none of us realized it.

And sometimes we just assume a person is saved, simply because there is no evidence of the opposite.
That pastor assumed and never asked for testimony? But then, we can't walk around and start to second guess or ask for testimony just to satisfy our suspicion.

Prayer request still continues: open door to lead to a testimony.
Thanks

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